Judge Victoria Pratt: How Respect Can Change the World

Judge Victoria Pratt:  

You never know what your kindness and what you're seeing and treating people with humanity is going to do. And when it's going to come back to bless you.

Marie Forleo:

My guest today has proven firsthand that we can both change our lives and our communities if we focus on treating people with dignity, love, and respect, and she's here today to show us how. Judge Victoria Pratt served as the chief judge of the Newark municipal court. She's a professor at the Newark School of Criminal Justice and is taught at Rutgers Law School. Her TED Talk, How Judges Can Show Respect, has been viewed over 30 million times. Her book, The Power of Dignity: How Transforming Justice Can Heal Our Communities, is available everywhere books are sold.

Judge Pratt, it is so great to have you back on the show. Oh my goodness. Okay, so first, can you please hold up this beautiful book. Please, hold it up. I want to see it.

Judge Victoria Pratt:

Oh my God. It's here. It has my name on it.

Marie Forleo:

It's so exciting. So first of all, congratulations, what a beautiful piece of work that you've created with this. And I just want to acknowledge you and just celebrate you, because last time we had our conversation, remember?

Judge Victoria Pratt:

Yes.

Marie Forleo:

We talked and you were like, I'm going to write a book. I'm going to do this.

Judge Victoria Pratt:

Yes.

Marie Forleo:

And it really wasn't that long ago. And you did it.

Judge Victoria Pratt:

I did it. I can't believe it. I feel like my two year old, I did it, in spite of all of the obstacles. And I'm so happy and thankful and grateful that you have me back on this show to really talk about this message of human-centered justice and human-centered relationships. So thank you again, Marie, for being committed to your mission, so those of us can share the messages of our missions.

Marie Forleo:

Oh, a hundred percent. So let's talk about this, The Power of Dignity. Let's talk about this idea, that respect is contagious. Tell me why you're so passionate about getting this message out into the world.

Judge Victoria Pratt:

Well, I'm a judge who was on this journey in this criminal justice system, which is not just broken, it's wrecked. And to see people coming through this system on this conveyor belt of injustice, and knowing that you had to do more, knowing that justice could really be better than what we were doing. I felt so many times like I was in this suspended hallucination, going through the motions of having poor people come through the system, imposing fines and costs and penalties on them that I knew when we imposed them, when I imposed them, they couldn't pay and that I would then see them again, and have to have this conversation about, o h, when are you going to make a first payment? And if you don't, you're going to go to jail.

That's not justice, that is us just fixated on punishment and going through these machinations that don't improve justice, don't improve communities. And, in fact, harm the lives of the people who are coming through our court system, particularly low-level offenders, especially low-level offenders who are getting picked up mostly for quality of life offenses, and being punished for being mentally ill, that's one of the things that we do. If you are mentally ill and don't have access to healthcare and don't have access to your medication, you will be outside screaming and yelling at some point, and behaving in a way that is disorderly. And what the system does is instead of getting you help, we punish you and we arrest you. And we process you through the system and send you to the jail, which is why our county jails have become the country's insane asylums right now.

Marie Forleo:

Your work is so powerful. And I really loved hearing about your mom, Ms. Elsa, and running a beauty salon. And the fact that she never had a security gate on her window, and yet no one ever broke into her store. I'm wondering if you can tell, for our audience, how she modeled for you that dignity and that respect, and how that influenced who you are as a human, and also who you've become as this judge and this force of nature.

Judge Victoria Pratt:

So my mom, the incredible Ms. Elsa, had a beauty salon, literally four blocks away from where I would become the chief judge, who would've known that would happen? So I grew up spending my time at this beauty salon in Newark, right off of Broad Street, running to the different beauty supply stores, buying hair care products, and bringing them back to the salon to my mom. And I grew up in a space where I heard the conversations of African American, Latina, African and immigrant women talking about their experience in this country, trying to save their families, but taking time to be with one another. And what's interesting about our parents is that we typically grow up thinking they're crazy, oh my God, they do these things and I'm never going to do that. And then I found myself channeling her when I became a judge, which really meant that I had really just learned the lessons of kindness and love. My mother used hair care as an opportunity to look into people's souls and heal them literally.

So the name of the book is also, is The Power of Dignity, but also How Transforming Justice Can Heal Our Communities. And I watched my mother talk to people lovingly, talk to and bring people into the beauty salon who were not paying customers, that other people would've shunned. And I remember even one time when, and they were all her children, they referred to her, the drug addicts in the neighborhood, referred to her as a Ma. I remember her standing on the platform of her store. These men were outside, literally in a fist fight and my mother stood on the platform of her steps and she yelled in her very broken English, "You know you're not supposed to be doing that. Stop it." And the men stopped and apologized. “You're right, Ma. We're so sorry.” They were so embarrassed that they would behave in that way, that she would have to call their attention to how they were behaving in this community. And that is because my mother brought them food.

My mother gave them food. My mother talked to them. My mother talked to folks about changing their behavior. In the eighties, in the end of the eighties, when HIV and AIDS patients were discarded by family members, my mother would work all day when she heard that somebody was in the hospital, get in her car before coming home, and go visit them in the hospital. And I remember one of her adopted sons would say to her, “Ma, stop coming here. Your patients are going, your clients…” I call them patients accidentally, but, “…your clients are going to stop coming to you.” And she said, “You don't worry about that.” And so this idea that he was a full human being and that he was entitled to still having care and love.

Just recently, I was scheduling a book talk. And this young woman comes on the call and I'm like, oh, I'm Judge Pratt. And she's like, oh, we've known each other years for years. And I'm like, well, I knew I'd never met her before. And she said, your mom was my beautician. And she was my grandmother's beautician, and my mother's beautician. But what was most important about that conversation is she said, “My grandmother had brain surgery and your mother went to the hospital and did her hair.” And I know that my mother did that, because she believed that women couldn't get better if they didn't feel good about themselves. And if they didn't feel good about their hair, there was no healing that could take place.

And so the thought that she would go to the hospital and touch someone's scalp, she was really just pouring love into the person and trying to help heal them. And so then I become this judge in this space, and sometimes I'm on the bench and I hear, “Ain't you Ms. Elsa's daughter?” And I'm like, you got to take them out of here, it's conflict. I know them, because I'm Ms. Elsa's daughter. And I find myself channeling some of the stuff that she did in dealing with mental health folks. I remember that when people went high, my mother's voice would get low. And having an incident where the police did not realize that this young man, I forgot that this young man's schizophrenia made him hate police. And I had new police officers in the courtroom. So when he came in, he put his headphones on and he was rocking. And I said, “Mr. Hill, you can't listen to music in the courtroom. You know, you can't.” And he took it off.

Had I been thinking and not overwhelmed by the court on that particular day, I would've allowed him to just do it, because what he was doing was trying to blast out the voices that were in his head. So he was just trying to listen to music, to quell himself, to calm himself. But when I realized that I had new officers in the courtroom, because one of them walked by him and stopped, I knew he said something. And I'm like, why is he talking to him? I was like, I got to get him out of here. And I called him, “Mr. Henry, come on up, come on up.” And my African-American officer went up to him and just tapped him very gently. “Son, the judge is calling you.” And the guy jumps into the air and they have this altercation in the court. And unfortunately, my white officer has him in a headlock. They are now in a fight, because this young man who's mentally ill now is lifting the 250-pound officer off the ground.

And I lower my voice, and I say, “Mr. Henry, Mr. Henry, it's Judge Pratt, listen to my voice. They're not trying to hurt you. Just stop moving.” And I had to calm myself, but I really had to engage him. But because I had built trust with him, because of my use of procedural justice. And because every other time that he had come to court, people had treated him with dignity and respect. He said, “Tell him to get off of me.” And I told the officer, “Get off of him. Officer Cosgrove just released his neck.”

Now the officer looked at me like I had lost my mind, because his training had never told him to respond in the way that I was asking him to, to this situation. And he did. Everybody, no arrest, but I'll tell you this, a week and a half later, the young man comes into court, he comes to his court date, and I'm like, “You owe the court an apology.” And the white officer comes. And the reason that I tell you his race is because, in the midst of everything that's been going on in the country, we can fix it. And the officer jumps out of nowhere. He's like, “No, no, no, judge. It was all a misunderstanding.” And I'm thinking, oh really? He's like, “Yeah, we spoke. We resolved it.” Now the gentleman was coming to court on his non-court days to get money from the officer for lunch, because now the officer's a peace officer who's responsible for this person.

And so I tell you, the officer said to me, “I've seen things happen in this court that I've never seen in my entire years on the force.” So it's this idea that really treating people with care, hearing them and seeing them. And that's what I talk about as well in the book, that it's also important that we see people with the ability to really see what's going on beyond the surface, that we hear them to really understand. But my mother was just this incredible person who really practiced these things, and really treated people with dignity and respect, no matter how they looked, no matter how they spoke. She constantly showed them love, which is why she never had to have a gate, because people respected their relationship with her. They weren't afraid that she was going to call the police. What they wanted was to respect their relationship with her. So they never did things.

In fact, her car would break down in the middle of the night, and they'd walk her to the bus stop and just stay with her, just to make sure she was okay. So even the neighborhood burglar would break into the people's shop beneath her, but never touch her place.

Marie Forleo:

Fascinating. It's so fascinating. I know, I read, and I'm so sorry that your mom passed last year.

Judge Victoria Pratt:

Yeah.

Marie Forleo:

And the story that you told about Ms. Beverly speaks to this incredible truth that in life, we never know the impact that our actions might have, and how they might come back around. And I'm wondering if you might share that story of Ms. Beverly.

Judge Victoria Pratt:

Yes. So my mom passes and I'm totally distraught, it's like they're taking my heart and just burying it in the cemetery. And oddly enough, COVID has created all these weird processes. So the woman at the funeral home, the mortician is like, just order your casket online. And so I ordered this casket online, it's sitting at the Newark airport for two days. They need this casket. I go sit there and have a meeting with the mortician and the assistant mortician, who is Ms. Beverly. Now when grieving, the morticians are incredibly important because they help you through this process. And Ms. Beverly was so wonderful listening to my stories, assuring me that my mom would be fine, that she would take care of her, that she would make sure that she looked the way I remembered her. But just the whole process was just so loving.

I had this meeting and the mortician says, “Oh, someone told me that you're Judge Pratt, and I didn't know that you were doing all this incredible work in the world. And Ms. Beverly would like to thank you.” And I'm thinking, why would Ms. Beverly want to thank me? She's doing all this wonderful stuff to take care of my mom and my family. And Ms. Beverly takes off her mask. And she says, “Because I sat in your courtroom all day. And because I was doing well on probation, you got rid of all my fines and costs.” And I sat there and I thought, my goodness, my mother's lessons have served her even in death, because who would have thought? I wasn't in Newark. It wasn't even that I was where I worked.

And her boss, the mortician, the owner of the place says, “And because you got rid of all her fines and all the money she owed, she was able to go to work, she was able to go to school and become a mortician.” And she was able to become a mortician right before COVID struck, and serve hundreds of families, because I saw her, I saw her humanity and I understood, and why would I want to have her held in this yoke of financial responsibility when she had done everything that we, the justice system, had asked of her? Except she couldn't get past this one thing, which was the financial yoke. She had gotten clean, she had done everything she was supposed to do, and she was ready to return to society. And not only has she returned, but she was now of service.

So it's amazing how these lessons and just really treating people with dignity and respect, and humanity. So for me, they're always like these God winks of this is why you're called to do these things. You know about callings, you know about being in the middle of it and thinking, am I making a difference? I have no idea if you're having any effect. And to be sitting at a funeral home and see someone that had come through my court, it really, it just resonated. It just was so much to grasp, but you never know what your kindness and what you're seeing and treating people with humanity is going to do. And when it's going to come back to bless you.

Marie Forleo:

When you were starting out, I read that you were observing other justice, other judges, excuse me, and you found their approach sometimes worrisome. You said, “I believe people can be more than we initially see.” And you wrote this, it's so beautiful. “By preserving a human being's dignity, rather than damaging it, we increase their value to themselves and society.” And I love this also, the missed opportunity to do good, because we are obsessed with punishment. And I feel like that frame Judge, that shift, right, of the court being a place that must punish, to a place that can heal, it is so mind-blowing and so transformative. How have you seen this play out? And I know this has been such a huge part of your career. So anything you want to say on that?

Judge Victoria Pratt:

Well, here's a person who has authority, and having the ability to do good, or having the ability to just, as I call it, smash out someone. And the reality is, is that if you can do good and really shift, I saw that, but we just kept revising time payments. Judges were yelling at people and it really didn't make any difference, because the person is drug sick right now. And unless we addressed the fact that they're drug sick, that 90-day jail sentence you give them, they're still a drug addict on the 91st day, but to use your authority, to actually impact change and transform them so that when you send them back into the community, you've done your job, because the judge is a public servant. And ignoring the fact that I'm sending this person back into this community to continue in a particular behavior, and to also understand that there's a reason why some people end up before me.

There's a reason that if we make it illegal to be poor, then a homeless person's existence is illegal, because sleeping in public means that the public is your home, but we've made it illegal to sleep in public, but we haven't done anything to cure your homelessness. We've allowed the rents to increase where you live, and what it means for a person not to be able to meet their basic needs, and the justice system, just then taking them in and punishing them for being poor, for being mentally ill, for being Black, for being Brown, for all of those things.

So, what I see and what I saw was that just a slight shift created better results immediately, speaking to people in a way that they understood, i.e, procedural justice, one of the principles, giving them the opportunity to speak to you so you really know what's going on, understanding that maybe they're talking to a voice and not being disrespectful to you, you appearing to be neutral in the process and not just joking around with the person that arrested them in the first place, understanding that their interactions with the police get brought into court. So maybe they're angry at you because of that. And also just being respectful, and what respectful means.

And so having people come back to court was a major shift that I saw, merely explaining, these are the consequences if you don't come back to court. Asking them, today is the court date. So today you come to court and you have to come back in two weeks on the 5th May, or the end of the month. If you live on government assistance, by the end of the month, you don't have any money. And literally just asking them, is this day okay? And they might say, “You know what, judge? I can come on the third because I have my check by then, which means I have my bus ticket, and I can get on the bus and come.” They don't want to disrespect you, it's just they don't have any means. And if you don't let them speak or bother to ask them, there's no way of knowing them.

So the day that I give them a new court date is also the day that I'm issuing the bench warrant for their arrest, because there's no way they can get there. But the idea that the judge asked me a question, oh, and they waited for a response. So you're listening. So really just using this authority to be of service, using, being a leader in this courtroom as well. Because if I behave one way, I expect everybody around me also to treat people respectfully and not taking, I'm not allowing the officer to scream at people. I've said that, “Officer, I'm the only person who gets to holler in this room. If you want to speak to that person, go over and talk to them. It's my courtroom.” So creating this space. So even when I talk about reformed leadership and how these principles can be applied in organizations and corporations, we need to make sure that dignity and respect is prioritized. And that everyone from the COO, CEO to the janitor understands that we treat everyone the same way, and that I'm holding you responsible as well for that.

Marie Forleo:

Now, if you’re loving this conversation, but secretly inside you’re thinking, “Wow, Judge Pratt is amazing but I could never make an impact like that.” Uh-uh-uh, we gotta get rid of that stinking thinking. You can figure anything out, including making the impact that you want to make. And to help you, you need to get my book, Everything is Figureoutable. It’ll give you the tools, the practices, and importantly, the mindset that you need to become unstoppable in the creative force of your own life. So go to EverythingIsFigureoutable.com to get your book, or anywhere books are sold. Now, let’s get back to the conversation with Judge Victoria Pratt. 

I want to go to one of your fantastic signature assignments with your time on the bench, is assigning of the essay. You wrote, “I came to the practice of assigning essays because I found that people search far and wide for answers that actually lie inside of them.” That for me was a church hallelujah moment. That is a whole…

Judge Victoria Pratt:

Hallelujah!

Marie Forleo:

Hallelujah. Honestly, that is the core belief that I have for myself, and it's the cornerstone of my career in any capacity that people ask me for guidance or advice. I am so clear that they have so much wisdom in their hearts, and so much clarity and so much direction, and so much connection to divinity, but we're so conditioned to look outside of ourselves and to not trust that. So, I'm curious, after all these years and all the essays, even the ones you had to stop assigning like my life at 25 to young men who said they wouldn't see 25, what have you come to learn about why these personal essays have such a profound impact on people?

Judge Victoria Pratt:

Well, there's so many reasons they have in effect. First of all, it's the first time people have ever asked this person a question about themselves, and given them an opportunity to just sit down and write, and then come to court and to read it out loud, to share with everyone else. So not only is my opinion important to the judge, but everybody in the courtroom will listen to it. I truly believe that the obstacles that we have in our lives are self-made. And they exist because we believe a lie. And the reason we believe a lie, is oftentimes, we've heard it so often and the sources from which it comes. And so when I work with people, even outside of court, and during the essay, I get to ask them, who said that to you? Why do you believe that? And it's a lie, and nobody says that to you.

And one of the essays that really brought this home to me was the woman who came before me. She was suffering, she actually never disclosed, but what she said, the first line of her essay, she came in on a crutch, and she came to court on the day that she had to read her essay with two people. And the first line of her essay was, I've been suffering from a fatal disease for 24 years. And I made a note. And I let her read, and she kept reading. And she started talking about once she got this diagnosis, she just started using drugs because her life was over and she ruined her life. And when she stopped reading everyone clapped, because it was just this beautiful, heartfelt thing about, this is why I'm before you on this heroin charge. This is how I got here. My life wasn't supposed to be this.

And I said to her, “Do you know that you beat that disease in the first year that you cannot suffer from a fatal disease for 23 years?” And literally her face contorted, because she had never thought about her situation and her circumstances in that way, I said, “You've been telling yourself the story that makes you the victim. And, in fact, you are the victor in that story. Every time that disease… You said, ‘I wish you would try to take me out.’ You've fought and you've fought, and you've been fighting for 24 years, for 24 years. And you've been winning because you're still here.” But it was this lie that she was holding onto. And until she wrote it down, she had never had a conversation with somebody who saw more than just, you are a victor. You are stronger than you think.

And I got to tell you, it looked to me that after we finished, she got all of this applause, that she was standing a little straighter when she was done, because nobody, so now I'm using my authority to just say, you're wrong. That's not true. Let's talk about how you kicked this disease's butt for the past 24 years, the doctor was wrong. Whoever else told you, oh, my cousin died six years ago. That's their business. I'm still here. And so that's what I mean about the answer is inside. The answer is inside. So talking to people who do drugs so that you can numb the pain. That's not it. Go inside because the answer's there. You don't need to be numb. You need to feel all of those things. And I'm also not a big, I know people are on this big proponent of, oh, people are entitled to their emotions. They are for a short period of time, because your emotions lie all the time. All the…

Marie Forleo:

Yes.

Judge Victoria Pratt:

...time they lie. And you wake up and you're feeling bad, somebody said something to you. That's not true. That's not what it meant. This doesn't mean that. And you walk around telling yourself, well, my father said that, and I'm always like, well, what did your father know about that? How could your father tell you, you couldn't go to college? Did your father go to college? So what the hell does he know about college? Love him, but don't take his advice on that. And so you sit there and you have to, and people have to come through. I used to love when they would write these angry essays. I don't know why the judge made me write this essay. I didn't even do nothing, blah, blah, blah. And by the end of the essay, they say, oh my God, they have their aha moment. They have their epiphany, but nobody's bothered to ask them. Nobody's bothered to listen. And so I sometimes say, you get it wrong when it comes to your mind, and then you go and sit with a dummy that confirms the lie, stop it.

Marie Forleo:

That's right.

Judge Victoria Pratt:

And so for me, the essays were really just an opportunity to work through it, but not just work through it. The essay, one of my favorites, if I believe something positive about myself, how would my life be different? I could care less about what the person wrote. For two weeks, the person was thinking about positive qualities about themselves. And they come like, oh, I couldn't tell if I should write about this, or if I should write about that, but it's changing their thought pattern. They don't even know the judge is messing with them, ha ha, they don’t realize that you were shifting their thoughts.

Marie Forleo:

Yes.

Judge Victoria Pratt:

Because they were going to write my essay, because they knew that when they came back, if you don't have your essay, you're going to go out in the hallway and write it. But this year that you're forcing them to do something for themselves.

People would say, on the outside, oh, well, people have limited education. How could you ask them to do that? And I was like, imagine how little I would have to think about the defendants and the people who come through my court, to think that they didn't have the right to express themselves about their own lives. So that is why this was so important and so powerful, because they could sort through, and then now they're learning how to process. They're learning how to process so…

Marie Forleo:

One of my favorite reminders that I say to myself often, we're talking about some of those feelings being lies.

Judge Victoria Pratt:

Yeah.

Marie Forleo:

Is just the notion that feelings aren't facts, they just aren't.

Judge Victoria Pratt:

Ooh!

Marie Forleo:

Feelings are not facts, they're feelings. That's right. But they're not facts. And we cannot get those two mixed up.

Judge Victoria Pratt:

Yes, they are not facts. And they're things that trigger feelings that are not right. And sometimes that's somebody else's stuff that they've imposed upon you. Limitations.

Marie Forleo:

It's programming, it's programming. It's programming that these beautiful minds of ours that can be like little sponges and absorb everything around us. And oftentimes we accept things in there and we surrender to notions or beliefs or other people's opinions without questioning them, or without challenging them. And what you do so beautifully is give people the space and the attention and the love…

Judge Victoria Pratt:

Yes.

Marie Forleo:

…to be able to question those things for themselves. And I just have such respect for you. Another reason why I respect you so much.

Judge Victoria Pratt:

Thank you. And listen, and I get it. People are living in tough times and living in poverty, they're living in spaces that are ravaged by violence, but you are still here. You are still here. And one person can change the entire trajectory of a family. I know that from experience. I know that. What my gift and curses is, is that I can see people as they ought to be. And so one makes me angry when they're living beneath their potential. So my friends will tell you if you've never gotten a call from her screaming about how you're not doing enough and then hanging up, I don't even realize I do this. Then she might not love you, but I do it. I can't believe you're not doing this and blah, blah, blah. You should be doing more. Click!

Marie Forleo:

I love that. You get the Judge Pratt smackdown on the call. And it's just like, boom, it's just done. Speaking of which, and again, I appreciate that. I was talking with someone on my team the other day, about how sometimes for myself, and for most of us, our most beautiful gift can also, sometimes bite us in the butt, it can be our challenge.

Judge Victoria Pratt:

Exactly.

Marie Forleo:

And I love that you shared in the book is the fact that you don't have to pretend to be infallible and you don't hide your failures. And I was wondering if you can speak about, and I hope I get this name right. Ms. Andujar and her son, and what that experience was and what you learned.

Judge Victoria Pratt:

Yeah. So, as someone who's written books, you know that there are parts that you have to sit there. And because I wanted to be honest, and I just needed to be vulnerable and say, listen, I'm not talking to you about what I think, I'm talking to you about what I know, but what I know from my own mistakes. And I'm not asking anyone in the justice system, outside of the justice system that can also apply these things, to be superheroes. What I'm asking you to do is to try and to acknowledge. So Ms. Andujar, she comes to court. And I love when people come, I always have fun when I see folks come, and she came with an attitude and I just thought, oh boy, she's going to have fun with me. And she came and the first time she kept missing, even mom came and was making excuses for her, and I'm not interested because my theory is, as a parent, your responsibility is to teach your kids about consequences, I'm consequence.

And fortunately for you, I'm here to help your child as opposed to really hurt them. So on the last day I read her the Riot Act before, on the fourth time of her not doing anything that she was supposed to do. She had all kinds, oh, I hurt my foot. My daughter hurt her foot. I don't want to hear that. Get done what I told you to get done. The scary thing about, why I was very worried about Ms. Andujar, because she had these, she was 19 years old with heroin charges. And it was clear to me she wasn't using, but there were possession charges. So she was hanging out with gang members who were making her be a mule. So she thought these guys were her friends…

Marie Forleo:

Right.

Judge Victoria Pratt:

…but she really was just holding drugs. And the conversation is always, oh, you're a woman. Oh, you don't really have a record. You just take the guilty plea on this, and it's not going to be a big deal.

So now she owed money, she owed a bunch of money. And she also had, so she had these cases and she couldn't resolve them. So on this last day, she comes to court. And I notice that there's this child in court. And I really don't like children in court, because I don't like that they can't erase seeing their parent before a judge. But she brought this kid. So most people, when they were finishing the program, brought someone so that they could be proud of them. And so I was like, oh, she's finished today. I'm certain, thank God. But as the person who's reading the report begins to speak, I hear that she's not complying.

Now in my chapter, this is, I see you, having to see. And when I look over, she's like filing her nails, totally disengaged, not feeling that this is important. And I'm thinking, I told her she was going to get kicked, that she was going to have to do her suspended sentence. And in that moment, I realize why this child is here. And the reason the child is here is because she thinks it's going to prevent me from sending her to jail. So now she's using this child to shield herself from the consequences that she is supposed to receive. And I lose it, because I want to protect the babies, and I can't believe that she has now brought this child here. And there's a process. And when I tell you I lose it, I start screaming. And I'm like, how dare you do this to this child? How dare you bring them here? I now have to call social services.

Now when I see the child, I'm thinking the kid is not understanding, but I'm focused, my anger is now geared towards her. And I'm not thinking about that, even though this child is small, they might understand what's happening. How dare you? You think this is going to stop? Well, I'm angry. And now I'm pissed at her, and I tell the officer to take her. And in the midst of this, the child looks up and the child screams in a way that I just, in that moment, I was like, oh my God, there's this child here who understands and is afraid and says, “Don't take my mommy.” When I tell you, it was the worst day I've ever had on the bench. The worst day I ever had on the bench. And it was because I let my anger for her blind me to really doing, my reason for being angry is because I didn't want this child traumatized. And then I participated in the trauma by not just calmly telling her to have a seat outside and call someone.

Now when the officer didn't put her in the, there was this room. So she had to sit down in this room and call someone to get her. Now she was in court with someone that she could have left the child in the hallway, but then she couldn't have used the child as a prop. So, someone comes, the grandparents come and take the child home and she is sitting. But I bring her back instead of letting her do her entire sentence at the county. And I say to her, now I have to tell you, I go to the back and I cry like a baby, like a child. There's a man tattooed in my courtroom. And his head goes down, because we're all feeling what happened here? 

Marie Forleo:

Yeah.

Judge Victoria Pratt:

And I let her out. I tell her, “What you've done is worse. What's happened here, I couldn't even punish you enough for what you've done and have to make up to this child.”

And she talks about her experience for those couple of days in the county jail and how the women in the county jail counsel her, and how they tell her what her life is going to look like. I get rid of all the money. I don't see her. And then months, maybe almost a year goes by. And there's this woman sitting in my courtroom. There's really, we're waiting for the people who are in custody to come out. But I noticed that she's acting suspiciously, it's not that cold and she's got her scarf up here. And so now I'm like, “Ma'am who are you here for? Why are you here?” But I could tell in her eyes. And I was like,”Wait a minute. Come up here. You're that lady, you're that young woman.”

And she gets up and I'm like, “What's going on? What are you doing here? What have you been doing?” And she was like, “Judge, I don't have a case. I don't even get into arguments with people anymore, because I don't want to come back here. I'm in school, I got a job at the local supermarket. I start school in January to get my GED. My family thanks you. I thank you.” And I'm sitting there so happy for her and I'm like, “I'm so proud of you.” And she says, “I'm proud of myself, Judge.” Because right now that's a new emotion. It's a new emotion to feel pride in the self, in one's self. And she's doing well. And then I'm thinking, if I had to do it over again, would I do things differently? Absolutely. Would she still get her jail sentence? Absolutely. But I would have done things, but I share that story because I want people to know that yes, we are human.

Marie Forleo:

Yes.

Judge Victoria Pratt:

We're human beings. We’re gonna…

Marie Forleo:

All of us.

Judge Victoria Pratt:

...make a mistake, but that we still have to get it right. And I had to go back and correct that, I had to go back and correct it, but I also needed to be able, I want people to see folks, I want people to see and perceive. So it made me look, and I have a rule and I violated my rule, which is once I start to feel the heat from my blood rise into my face, I've got to disengage. I don't care what's going on.

Marie Forleo:

Yep.

Judge Victoria Pratt:

But I have to disengage, you know when you're getting angry, and in that moment that’s it.

Marie Forleo:

Oh yeah.

Judge Victoria Pratt:

You know.

Marie Forleo:

Yeah. No. And I don't think that there's anyone listening, or watching right now, who is not nodding their head saying, “I have done and said and behaved in ways that I am not proud of, that if I could go back, I would do it differently.” And that's our humanness. And I think it just speaks into what we're talking about here, which is seeing each other as whole beings, and seeing each other in our fullness of the possibility of our strength and then having compassion for our faults.

Judge Victoria Pratt:

Absolutely.

Marie Forleo:

And that's where the transformation comes. I just, again, I wish I could reach through this screen and hug you. And I know I'm sure we'll have another conversation next time, but I'm wondering as we wrap up today, if you would be willing to read us a passage?

Judge Victoria Pratt:

Yes. Yes.

Marie Forleo:

From, and I had it as page 217, but I think on our team, Louise had told you the passage, because it's so beautiful, and I think this is a perfect way to wrap up your incredible work and the celebration of this book coming out.

Judge Victoria Pratt:

Absolutely. And thank you for letting me read this into almost the record.

Marie Forleo:

Yes, that's right.

Judge Victoria Pratt:

Oh my gosh. “I can imagine a world where we are not required to live with unfairness. I believe we can change things for the better and improve people's lives. Treating people with respect can transform organizations and institutions. These skills are transferable. We first need to shift our perspective to see how dignity and empathy can be centered in different environments. We need to ask tough questions and listen, even to uncomfortable truths. How do we conduct ourselves? What norms are we adhering to? How can we do better?”

And so this willingness to always do better, always be transforming. And I'm talking about us as leaders, not just asking them to change, but what are you willing to do to change and to really be of service? So thanks again. The book launches May 10th. I'm so happy to get this message into the world. And I hope people enjoy it. I hope people apply this, they take action. And thank you for all that you've done to help me get this book into the world as well.

Marie Forleo:

Of course. Judge, you are a force of nature. The book is extraordinary, but more importantly, it is really the change that so many of us want. And we can look out and watch the news, or hear the stories, or see the television reports. And the solutions and what you've been practicing. And for everyone, if you're watching or listening right now, if you haven't watched or listened to our first conversation with Judge Pratt, you need to go back and watch this one, because they work like peanut butter and jelly.

Judge Victoria Pratt:

I love it.

Marie Forleo:

They're going to be beautiful together. It's like these solutions, again, both in the criminal justice system, but truthfully more broadly, society at large, they cost nothing.

Judge Victoria Pratt:

No.

Marie Forleo:

They don't require millions or billions of dollars of resources, or all of these different technologies. It's actually dignity and respect and listening and a mindset shift that creates that heart shift that can transform everything. So I bow to you. I love you. I respect you, our entire team. We so appreciate who you are, and we're so excited for everyone to hear this message.

Judge Victoria Pratt:

Thank you so much. Thank you again.

Marie Forleo:

Do you ever turn on the news or just look around at the world and feel like it's all too much to bear? Well then you need to watch this episode next, because I'm going to show you one simple exercise to turn negative vibes into positive fuel.

Pain and suffering is a part of our life. Now the good news is that you don't have to let it overwhelm you, and it doesn't have to force you to lose contact with the core essence of who you are.